so psa: eugen hard severed working with purism when they made it clear they had no intention to keep far-right and nazi assholes off of librem one
so maybe if you want to criticize Eugen and/or Mastodon, stick to things that are actually true and not a bunch of falsehoods and frankly offensive conspiracy theories #mastodon #mastodev #mastometa #fediverse #floss #foss #women
really goddamned disappointed with the state of meta-fedi discourse right now, now more than ever we need unity and technical solutions to long-running and difficult problems with activitypub, federation, and server software, not a bunch of wild, salacious, and frankly pretty offensive conspiracy theories about Eugen or whomever the hell bears your pet grudge
90%+ of the fedi is going to block gab and they're still going to be able to see everything because defederation/server blocks don't work like you think they do because activitypub. maybe instead of grandstanding to misdirect about whatever bullshit you're up to, come help us find a solution to THAT looming disaster
@kaikatsu this isnt entirely fair, a lot of it is just baked into activitypub, and i honestly hear the "but you can right click open in new window" excuse from the anti-eugen crowd just as much as i hear it from the pro-eugen crowd
@nik see: my other reply. big difference between active stalking and passive surveillance working out of the box.
@noirscape while that works for some things, they can still get a lot from context threads and such, but thanks for the reminder ive been meaning to do that
@anna It’s pretty much the closest we can really do without locking federation down to only specific instances, which would screw over smaller instances or upcoming ones.
Reject their incoming statuses and prevent them from indexing our statuses. It won’t stop them from browsing it by directly going to your instance, but it’ll at least stop them from shitting up threads from gab directly (since federation suspending just means you can’t see them shitting up threads).
@noirscape it still slurps things it finds in threads, etc. though since those take a circuitous route to the blocked server that does no checking at all, which is why even if it is the software equivalent of asking nicely, we need something that at least indicates to not store content from a server that is blocking said server
@anna Hrmm, that would involve exposing the blocked instance list to a degree however, which I know not all instances are interested in since some block due to them blocking instances to fend of harassers, which would just move to another instance if they realised they were being blocked.
@anna do you think me personally blocking gab domains will stop them? I dont want them seeing my posts
@nik @SunSaint yeah that's the crux of the problem, but also like, yeah if its public you can see it just right click open in private window, though a lot of the technical discourse has been poisoned by that because this is not really a solvable problem, that we can't do ANYTHING and so therefore its time to end the discussion and not do anything actionable
but there's a difference between explicit stalking and passive surveillance as the default mode all fedi servers operate under, and someone is going to get hurt before people realize this
Yeah being able to block people but also have public posts is a really difficult problem that it's not simply a matter of flicking a switch to fix, it's something the internet has been dealing with for a long time and while I'm not saying there will never be a solution, getting upset with someone for not coming up with one is rather like getting upset with a specific doctor for not finding the cure to some disease.
@anna @mal @nik @SunSaint
To go round and round in a circle again: I don't think the problem is that privileged people failed to implement something better as much as it is that people, privileged or not, couldn't figure out something better to implement.
As @noirscape wrote, going the Zot/Zap route and locking down federation would hurt smaller instances or new ones. That solves one big problem and creates another big problem.
@SunSaint @nik to explain what is going on technically as simply as possible, when you block/defederate from the admin panel, your local server drops all copies of all posts from that instance and drops all follow requests. the problem is that for a variety of good technical reasons mostly involving caching, when content is requested from an instance there is no identification saying who is doing the requesting.
this is why like, all our posts are on, say, free speech extremist (pleroma), or baraag (mastodon), despite them both being extremely blocked, the block isnt reciprocal so they still see anything public pretty much
@anna would it be helpful for defederation to also generate an nginx block rule? I’ve been thinking of doing something like that for the Shop.
@phildini like it kind of helps? but there's still other places for requests to leak
@anna sure, I mean, relays are now a potential attack vector right?
@phildini kind of but so are like, threads
@anna IMO, the nature of the discussion should be this: How do we get people we *do* want to see on the Fediverse, specifically educators, journalists, public servants, et cetera?
@jon i think we're doing a good job of that by building something that such people would want to come to, and solving the problem of missing some key tools to prevent nazis from stalking and harassing people is an important part of that
how can the fediverse tell people its better than twitter if there are still reply nazis stalking you when you post on the federation?
@anna @jon I'm just getting back into fediverse stuff, so I'm kind-of walking into this conversation blind (but it's taking up the top of my home feed and interesting). It sounds like the problem is you can block extremists from showing up in your feeds, but can't stop them from seeing those feeds or posting in such a way that other people who view those feeds see both your posts and their responses to you?
@anna I guess that news never reached me? All I see is no news, I never saw any hard severs. But heck, maybe it's a communication problem again?
Also, you should maybe read my apology, since I know you're subtooting me. :)
@maloki i did see your reversal and thank you, but i've been seeing A Lot Of Shit
also eugen announced it on his .social which i get the feeling a lot of people who are going on about it kind of sort of have blocked, and i didn't even see it myself until it was brought to my attention, hence getting the word out here lol
i boosted it earlier, but it's here: https://mastodon.social/@Gargron/102180970932210065
@anna I feel like that link you sent me should've been in this first post.
@maloki i boosted it before posting this
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