by endorsing discord, via advertising a discord guild for your FOSS project, you harm FOSS because you help them with their disinformation campaign that discord is a viable alternative to libre tools like IRC and XMPP

@kaniini regular reminder that discord bans people from using third party clients, it’s even worse than just a proprietary service. using it to host FOSS communities in no circumstance is sane

@sam @kaniini There's only one problem: All of my friends use Discord, and I don't know if they'll switch over to something else. I am however open to recommendations on what I should use instead.

@owenthecat @kaniini i predict that your friends will refuse to use anything other than discord, and will get pissed off with you if you try and move them

why yes I’m cynical from experience. this is how people work, and it’s why proprietary networks are able to become so entrenched. what to do about it? god knows

Enter discipleship

@sam @owenthecat this is the problem i am having. i can be a software vegan all i want, and i agree with @kaniini , but like, the FOSS alternatives suck and nobody wants to use them

we really do need to come up with a federated discord, but xmpp and matrix are :OMEGALUL: levels of bad

@anna Federated Discord exists already, it's IRC. IRCv3 especially is looking like it fixes a lot of shortcomings

And as always, if even half the effort that went into developing Matrix went into improving some XMPP client (say Gajim) then we could just use that, perhaps bundle it with Prosody under some brand that makes it easier for j random user to talk about it. Like I dunno, "Harmony" as a play on Discord

@tomas the uncomfortable truth is that discord's ease of use needs to be aped. matrix sucks ass because i am good at computers and couldn't join a server when i tried it and it will always suck ass if its more difficult to join a "Harmony" server than a Discord one

@tomas ircv3 seems promising but i worry any attempt to make irc discord is going to make irc grognards mad and still not be a viable alternative to discord

@anna Correct me if I'm wrong, but part of Discord's onboarding is that it has a Web client, yes? Web-IRC and Web-XMPP are definitely things. It also seems part of Discord's success is due to spamming Reddit about it, which can also be done. And clients that cater to gamer-americans can always be written
Hey have you seen the Discord-inspired Concord theme for Converse.js?
Please can you quantify what makes IRC/XMPP as protocols, free to implement as anyone wants, worse than the centrally controlled Discord, only implementable as Discord allows?

Also: please explain something about !XMPP or IRC that is "hard to use" where Discord excels, but avoid anything that is so because Discord is centrally controlled (your desire was to have something federated, so be constructive).
@mmn @anna Discord has a "modern" web client. That's pretty much it.

@mmn you click on a discord server link it just works. it has an easy registration flow, you don't even HAVE to register if you don't want to initially, and you don't need to know anything about federated vs centralized to just get connected and chat, you can paste in images and videos, the client isn't a confusing nightmare, while it lacks end to end encryption it also lacks the obnoxious, obtuse, and WAY overcomplicated interface that xmpp/matrix have for end to end encyption. also there's voice chat and it just works without much fuss.

You are spewing out shit about certain clients (not protocols, as I asked for) without even naming them.

Which clients have you used for !XMPP that are so obnoxious?

@mmn :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

if you're going to ask me questions then get mad i answered them then call it an argument, fuck off. nobody's going to be browbeaten into using a discord alternative that's a solidly worse and more confusing experience.

@anna @mmn
>a discord alternative that's a solidly worse

depends on your opinion of discord ;)

@anna @mmn matrix, however, is firmly in the "discord alternative that's a solidly worse" category

@anna @mmn
riot.im has a horrible UX, is an electron monstrosity, and is the only practical client

I don't see me getting mad. However, I'm afraid you haven't actually answered me, just ranted. You still haven't mentioned a single !xmpp client by name, unfortunately.

Also, you said you thought we should make a "federated discord". But then you complain about features of federation as if they were downsides (client versatility, adaptability for various disabilities etc.). You claim centralised antifeatures as something positive.

And you still haven't mentioned a single " obnoxious" !xmpp client. Just that they're all horrible. Despite single-click clients that Just Work(tm) are all over the place. Those are web based of course and work in the field all around us. And are federated, free and open source software. !fs

Discord works for people who don't care about software freedom, privacy and security.

@mmn you can have client versatility all you want but there still needs to be a consistent core experience. look at how mastodon and pleroma have succeeded where xmpp and matrix haven't caught on: there is a core idea executed well and the ui features are the same core, consistent features across clients and server flavors, with differences being more different ways of presenting things that all are delivered in a way that is somewhat consistent. hell you're using some bizarre gnu social knockoff or some shit with weirdass bang hashtags that doesnt include @ in replies and i can still tell what's going on on my mastodon instance.

@mmn

xmpp meanwhile doesn't even have consistent away messages across clients, chatrooms work weird across clients, the most popular ones, android conversations and conversations.js do things in a way that doesn't work well for other clients or properly implement existing features, and on top of that OMEMO is a usability nightmare that is almost useless because of how awkward it is to ensure that it's on

@mmn

matrix has either the same problems as xmpp or they are bizarre inversions. they're both a nightmare to set up servers for for their own reasons, neither of which really coming as a fully assembled kit. OMEMO is still a nightmare (or whatever its called) and now instead of 50 competing bizzare nightmare clients, you pretty much have only the one so good news it's a consistent experience (for now) but the bad news is its consistently shit. all the workflows are bizarre, finding chatrooms is weird, logging in and registering in the first place is way too hecking obtuse (TWO servers???? what the fuck is riot.im i thought i was on matrix.org???????)

@mmn

my point is you can get huffy with me and screech about how its ~free software more freedom is better~ and trust me i fucking know i dont run goddamned gentoo for its legendary easy of use and well known compatibility with proprietary software, xmpp, matrix, and irc all suck ass compared to discord and no alternatives to discord will catch on until that stops being true. federated microblogs are much better implemented and that's why people actually use them, but IM and chat are still a nightmare and they won't catch on until they're up to par

Yes, a bizarre !GNUsocial knockoff. Because Mastodon was the original federated social implementation.

Good bye, and thanks for all the fish.

@mmn ive never had gnu social people come at me using weird bangtags and non-existant @ but go off and stay mad i guess

@anna You don't need to register to IRC either, and for XMPP you could certainly write a server that creates temporary users requiring nothing but username, via a nice Web UI. XMPP supports media attachments, so sillyness like stickers is just a matter of client stuff. Then there's Jingle for audio/video calls. OMEMO is a huge wart though, protocolwise.

As @mmn not-so-diplomatically points out, these objections are really about client UX, not XMPP itself. So really, the solution is to apply perspiration to one or two of the more popular clients, to bring them up to user expectations..!

@tomas @mmn the problem with xmpp its a nightmarishly inconsistent experience with different clients trying to "solve" usability by making it so you don't even know why something another user does makes sense unless you know how their client works. sure its great its so flexible or whatever, but that's not without its downsides.

@anna @mmn xmpp does have voice chat, it's just that it's not well supported, iirc

Nothing you write is an argument against !xmpp as it fulfills all of these desires.

Please remind me, how do you implement a new feature for Discord? Or maybe remove an antifeature that Discord requires you to use in order to take part of its heavenly bliss?

Oh and what happens when Discord goes bankrupt, get bought up by a less benevolent (not that they're especially nice today...) market actor?
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